An interview with Dr. William Jelani Cobb
Redefining hip hop
Redefining hip hop
By Jonathan Gramling
Part 1 of 2
William Jelani Cobb doesn’t come across as someone who would be an expert on
hip hop. Cobb was in Madison as a guest lecturer for UW-Madison’s OMAI program. Cobb,
an associate professor of history at Spelman College, is a distinguished, soft-spoken
scholar. And maybe that’s the point. Cobb dispels the stereotypes of hip hop culture,
admitting its weaknesses while also exploring its strengths.
Cobb wrote a definitive book on hip hop culture, “To the Break of Dawn,” and he
doesn’t let anyone off the hook as he talks about hip hop culture as much of a part of
African American tradition and culture as the blues or jazz.
“When hip hop emerged, it was really a means of discussing what post-civil rights
America was,” Cobb said during an interview with The Capital City Hues. “We had those
voices of the civil rights movement and people who did these tremendous things. But
there was a void in terms of the generation after them being able to express what their
particular version of this story was, what their relationship to this world was. Hip hop is
Part 1 of 2
William Jelani Cobb doesn’t come across as someone who would be an expert on
hip hop. Cobb was in Madison as a guest lecturer for UW-Madison’s OMAI program. Cobb,
an associate professor of history at Spelman College, is a distinguished, soft-spoken
scholar. And maybe that’s the point. Cobb dispels the stereotypes of hip hop culture,
admitting its weaknesses while also exploring its strengths.
Cobb wrote a definitive book on hip hop culture, “To the Break of Dawn,” and he
doesn’t let anyone off the hook as he talks about hip hop culture as much of a part of
African American tradition and culture as the blues or jazz.
“When hip hop emerged, it was really a means of discussing what post-civil rights
America was,” Cobb said during an interview with The Capital City Hues. “We had those
voices of the civil rights movement and people who did these tremendous things. But
there was a void in terms of the generation after them being able to express what their
particular version of this story was, what their relationship to this world was. Hip hop is
set up globally and was the product of Black and Brown communities, poor communities in the South Bronx that were trying to find ways to
bring up and to express their ideas and joys and frustrations and aspirations.” Cobb should know. He grew up in Queens, New York as hip
hop was springing up from the sidewalks of the South Bronx in the early 1970s.
While hip hop culture is beset by stereotypes of misogyny, narcissism and violence, Cobb takes a rational view to show that hip hop is
no better or worse than other cultural expressions. “Hip hop is like anything else,” Cobb emphasized. “It’s like literature or film or any cultural
kind of thing where there are things that are great about it and things that are troubling about it and there are things that are backward and
things that are progressive and forward-looking. It expresses all of those things. I think we have this false separation between hip hop and
the rest of America as if the things that we find troubling in the culture don’t exist in the broader society. So the misogyny, the homophobia and
the materialism that we talk about in hip hop culture is connected to the broader currents in America. It also has the wonderful things like the
creativity, the audacity, the fact that hip hop has this really strong relationship to American cinema with a level of storytelling, reference and
illusion. There are great artistic things about it as well. It’s a complicated portrait like any good cultural movement would be.”
For instance, while much is made of gangsta rap and its glorification and promotion of violence, gangsterism isn’t unique to hip hop
culture. “When people were talking about rappers, so called ‘gangsta rappers,’ we focus on the rap side of it, not on the gangster side of it,”
Cobb said. “The gangster is an American icon. Every country has criminals, but only America has gangsters. There is a particular kind of
folklore and a particular kind of stylism and mythology that surround these people and it becomes the basis for a whole genre of gangster
movies. With rap, you see a continuation of those same kinds of ideas. But the difference is I don’t think people necessarily thought that Don
Corleone was real. You didn’t think that if you went to Manhattan and you were going to run into Edward G. Robinson and he was going to kill
you in the streets. But with hip hop, it was taken literally in some ways.”
On some levels, ‘gangsta rap’ is a fantasy of what urban life is fueled by the imaginations and buying power of White suburban youth. But
that fantasy can have some deadly real life consequences for youth who live in urban areas.
“It is a fantasy, but I think it is dangerous too because a lot of times the people who are in these very same communities are susceptible,”
Cobb said. “I don’t think this is simply suburban kids either. One of the unfortunate things is that in some circumstances there are young
African Americans who believe that is what the story of Black life is. If they are listening to a rapper like 50 Cent who is saying ‘I sell crack
and I kill people and I do this,’ that might be the case. But I always point out to people that I grew up in roughly the same neighborhood as 50
Cent and his music expresses one version of that community. If I were to write about that community, I would talk about the man who lived
next door to me who owned a dry cleaners business. When I was a teenager, he would ask me what I was going to do with my life and tell me
not to waste the time or talent that I had. Those people stand out to me in terms of where I grew up. I would like to see the entirety of those
communities talked about because I don’t think the culture necessarily does that. And it reinforces the stereotypes.”
Next Issue: Generation gaps of perception
bring up and to express their ideas and joys and frustrations and aspirations.” Cobb should know. He grew up in Queens, New York as hip
hop was springing up from the sidewalks of the South Bronx in the early 1970s.
While hip hop culture is beset by stereotypes of misogyny, narcissism and violence, Cobb takes a rational view to show that hip hop is
no better or worse than other cultural expressions. “Hip hop is like anything else,” Cobb emphasized. “It’s like literature or film or any cultural
kind of thing where there are things that are great about it and things that are troubling about it and there are things that are backward and
things that are progressive and forward-looking. It expresses all of those things. I think we have this false separation between hip hop and
the rest of America as if the things that we find troubling in the culture don’t exist in the broader society. So the misogyny, the homophobia and
the materialism that we talk about in hip hop culture is connected to the broader currents in America. It also has the wonderful things like the
creativity, the audacity, the fact that hip hop has this really strong relationship to American cinema with a level of storytelling, reference and
illusion. There are great artistic things about it as well. It’s a complicated portrait like any good cultural movement would be.”
For instance, while much is made of gangsta rap and its glorification and promotion of violence, gangsterism isn’t unique to hip hop
culture. “When people were talking about rappers, so called ‘gangsta rappers,’ we focus on the rap side of it, not on the gangster side of it,”
Cobb said. “The gangster is an American icon. Every country has criminals, but only America has gangsters. There is a particular kind of
folklore and a particular kind of stylism and mythology that surround these people and it becomes the basis for a whole genre of gangster
movies. With rap, you see a continuation of those same kinds of ideas. But the difference is I don’t think people necessarily thought that Don
Corleone was real. You didn’t think that if you went to Manhattan and you were going to run into Edward G. Robinson and he was going to kill
you in the streets. But with hip hop, it was taken literally in some ways.”
On some levels, ‘gangsta rap’ is a fantasy of what urban life is fueled by the imaginations and buying power of White suburban youth. But
that fantasy can have some deadly real life consequences for youth who live in urban areas.
“It is a fantasy, but I think it is dangerous too because a lot of times the people who are in these very same communities are susceptible,”
Cobb said. “I don’t think this is simply suburban kids either. One of the unfortunate things is that in some circumstances there are young
African Americans who believe that is what the story of Black life is. If they are listening to a rapper like 50 Cent who is saying ‘I sell crack
and I kill people and I do this,’ that might be the case. But I always point out to people that I grew up in roughly the same neighborhood as 50
Cent and his music expresses one version of that community. If I were to write about that community, I would talk about the man who lived
next door to me who owned a dry cleaners business. When I was a teenager, he would ask me what I was going to do with my life and tell me
not to waste the time or talent that I had. Those people stand out to me in terms of where I grew up. I would like to see the entirety of those
communities talked about because I don’t think the culture necessarily does that. And it reinforces the stereotypes.”
Next Issue: Generation gaps of perception
Dr. William Jelani Cobb, a professor of African
American history at Spelman College is a nationally
recognized expert on hip hop culture.
American history at Spelman College is a nationally
recognized expert on hip hop culture.